Europe and the Web Analytics Association
Regular readers know that I travel to Europe twice a year to do business and work with my partners Satama and LBi/OX2. During my most recent trip I was delighted to have more time to talk at length with a wide variety of companies, practitioners, and thought leaders and a few things stood out in my mind after these conversations:
- The European market is not unlike the U.S. market in terms of practitioner experience and overall thought leadership. I reported this after my last trip based primarily on survey data, but have been delighted to verify that there are some really amazing people doing some truly great things “across the pond.” This includes end-users and analytics managers inside companies and thought and practice leaders like Steve Jackson at Satama, Aurelie Pols and her team at LBi/OX2, Dennis Mortensen, Lars Johannsen, Oliver Schiffers, Marianina Chapin, Brian Clifton, and a whole lot of folks I’m forgetting to list! In a way, Dennis Mortensen recently became the “Avinash Kaushik” of Europe, a full-blown analytics evangelist!
- The European market is different than the U.S. market in terms of investment in web analytics, although less so that I previously believed. After countless conversations about technology, people, and process, I kept coming back to the same conclusion: Europe is somewhere between two and four years behind the U.S. in terms of investment in web analytics. More specifically, I believe that the northern countries (Nordics, UK, Holland, primarily) are more like the U.S. in terms of their investment and, broadly speaking, the lag-behind time increases as you move further south. My evidence is anecdotal to be sure, but when I tested the theory most people working for pan-European organizations agreed — do you?
Based on these two points I come to the inevitable conclusion that Europe is about to really take off in terms of the adoption and use of web analytics. Those of you keeping track will recall that it was about two years ago that the practice of web analytics really started to accelerate here in the U.S. I think that the northern European countries especially are about to begin this same type of rapid adoption/expansion we’ve seen over the past two years, which is excellent news!
Now, some of you are certainly saying “well duh, Peterson” either because you work for a U.S.-based vendor who has been bulking up in Europe for the last 12 months, or more likely because you’re European and are experiencing what I’ve described first hand. Fair enough. But my point is not that Europe is running behind the U.S. in adoption of analytics; my point is that European practitioners, consultants, and vendors are in a different place than their U.S.-based counterparts and thusly would benefit from a different support organization than we benefit from here in North America. Specifically, I believe that Europe should have its own Web Analytics Association.
Yep, I think we need a EuWAA.
Because the needs of European practitioners, vendors, consultants, and even the European media are different, I increasingly suspect that a North American-based WAA may not be best suited to provide the same type of great opportunities, educational events, and benefits we appreciate in the U.S. and Canada. And, while I agreed to not name names, I think some European WAA members don’t disagree with this assessment and would relish the chance to provide/receive additional value from a more locally run association.
A sister organization in Europe, one governed by a European Board of Directors and funded primarily by European vendors and consulting firms, would invariably be better able to serve the needs of specific markets at different stages of analytics maturity. The EuWAA could set country-specific pricing, have both regional and pan-European events, and make decisions that were carefully focused on the needs of different European constituencies.
I’m not saying anything is wrong with the current WAA; I think that the current and past board’s of directors have done a good job working to include European members in the decision making process and overall value chain. I’m saying is that there is an opportunity to “think different” (to quote Jim Sterne) and consider how a more regional focus might be better for everyone. The NaWAA could focus on North American events, opportunites, outreach, and issues and create even more value for members here in the states and Canada. And the NaWAA and EuWAA could work together to provide value for emerging markets across the globe.
In terms of funding, I would propose that A) there are a ton of European vendors who would be willing to support the EuWAA, B) that the U.S.-based vendors looking to expand into Europe would be motivated to support the group, C) European companies and practitioners would be more likely to support a European organization focused on the specific needs of European businesses and D) it would be very appropriate for the NaWAA to provide seed capital to this new, sister organization.
Web Analytics Demystified would gladly join as a founding member since we’re a global organization!
I don’t want to get into more specifics here, but if you have an open mind you might see that the idea makes a ton of sense and that a lot of the necessary work has already been done. And while I’m not 100% sure which of the European citizens running for the WAA Board have been elected, between those fine folks, the European thought leaders, and forward thinking European vendors and consultancies, I firmly believe that EuWAA can be done successfully.
I also believe, while some will argue this, that the Web Analytics Association in general will be better for breaking up into regionally focused sister organizations. Because our practice is still relatively young, there is undoubtedly differential geographic maturation and I think this needs to be recognized and treated appropriately.
Anyway, I just wanted to put the idea out there. With the annual meeting/party happening in a few weeks in San Francisco it seemed like as good a time as any to bring EuWAA up and get people talking.
Nick Potter added the following ...
I agree totally with this. In fact, one of the things that put me off joining the WAA for a long time was the fact that looking at their current website it seemed to have a very heavy North American focus and didn’t seem to offer anything to those outside the US. Even now I notice, all the eMetrics events in the US are listed on the events calendar, but none of the ones outside the US are shown. This is just one example.
I’m not sure it needs to go as far as an EuWAA and a NaWAA but I certainly think better defined international groups - perhaps regional chapters - need to be created which get funding from members and organisations within their region. I would suggest US, Europe and Asia-Pacific should be fine.
I’m also hopeful that with the likes of Marianina Chapin and others not US based looking to be involved at board level with the WAA this focus on the WAA being US-centric will slowly go away.
Braucht Europa eine eigene WAA? | Web Analytics & SEO - News added the following ...
[…] T. Peterson hat aktuell einen interessanten Artikel veröffentlicht in dem er eine eigene WAA für Europa […]
Blackbeaks Blog….All things Analytics - » European Web Analytics Association added the following ...
[…] Eric Peterson calls for a European sister organisation of the WAA citing what he calls “the inevitable conclusion that Europe is about to really take off in terms of the adoption and use of web analytics” as his underlying belief that the European market needs outweigh the current level of support offered by the International committee of the WAA. […]
Steve Jackson added the following ...
My full response is here:
http://blackbeak.conversionchronicles.com/2008/04/21/european-web-analytics-association/
The short answer is I agree, let’s put it to a vote.
Fanny added the following ...
Hello,
I’m Fanny, and I’m french. It’s hard to read this article just because it’s so right. Yes, european persons don’t think like american ones. Yes, mostly of the european people are four years behind the USA, especially for the investment in Web Analytic.
But you know it’s very hard to convince directors to invest money and persons in this domain. Most of french companies have just discovered Google Analytics, and used it just because it’s free. I know that this domain is very interesting and that all companies have an interest on it. But I’m young, and not the person who decides where we have to invest for the next months.
I’m really sure that a EuWAA have a big interest, for adapt WAA to the european’s thinking, but also because we are in late. And we can’t just arrived now and be at the same place than US people. But in France, this domain isn’t developped. Many persons don’t seen interest on that. It’s just awesome !! But maybe the things are moving, some french tools are coming, and I think that it could be just the beginning.
I’m sorry for my english, but I just want to thank you for your blog, yours books and for your support. Just a big thank. If a EuWAA will exist, I would participate with pleasure.
eric added the following ...
Julien: Your point is excellent and is part of the reason I wrote this post. Here in America (and to some extent in Canada) we have, for good or ill, a tremendous homogeneity that I have not seen in my travels about Europe. I think that this relative sameness of experience, culture, and language sets the bar differently than it would in other regions around the world regarding how the WAA provides value.
So we agree, but I have to ask you since I cannot read the chatter in the French WA Forum, what do you think? You are a pretty influential member of the thought-leadership in Europe, as is your oh-so-pregnant boss. Would you prefer to continue under “one WAA” or do you see value in my proposition?
I’d love to hear what you think. Thanks for writing!
eric added the following ...
Nick: Thanks for your thoughts, they’re pretty much what I heard over and over when I asked people about the WAA. And perhaps you’re right — more of a international focus will solve the problem (assuming this is a problem) but I guess to me it seemed like some very well-meaning people throughout Europe have been working for years to make Europe a bigger piece of the WAA agenda without much luck.
Hopefully you’re right most of the European’s running in the recent election will be elected, giving your part of the world a little more say in how resources are distributed, etc. But I’m not sure if that will be enough — I dunno.
Is there some particular reason you ** don’t ** like the idea of sister organizations (EuWAA and NaWAA)? Everyone I talked to seemed pretty supportive of the idea but my sample size was admittedly limited. If there are good reasons to ** not ** make a change like this, now is a good time to get them out on the table.
Thanks a ton for your comment!
eric added the following ...
Steve: Whoooooaaaaaaah partner, I am excited about your enthusiasm but I would venture that we’re a ** long ** way from needing to call a vote on Europe’s separation from the WAA.
As I mentioned to you when we discussed the idea at Molly Malone’s in Helsinki, I just wanted to start the conversation. But it is important to recognize the very hard work that people like Jim, Bryan, Rand, Greg, Seth, and a host of others have done to get the WAA where it is today … and recognize that a EuWAA would have to do a great deal of that hard work to arrive at a similar point.
I’m not saying it’s a bad idea or is too difficult to be done, but I do think a measured approach is absolutely required.
My post was timed to take advantage of the upcoming WAA meetings in San Francisco and to get the newly elected board members thinking about this possible outcome. Hopefully that will happen — although I don’t have any way to influence this idea’s addition to the agenda, perhaps one of my readers does.
I will inevitably be criticized for proposing that Europe have greater autonomy in their ability to support WAA members in the region but you know what, that’s okay. As I talked through most of the arguments with folks the primary complaints arose from a loss of revenue and perceived power wielded by the WAA as currently instantiated. My sincere hope is that current/new Board will be able to see beyond these issues and make a decision that will be ** best ** for web analytics professionals around the world.
Your thoughts, if not necessarily your persistence in getting me to drink Finnish beer into the wee-hours, is greatly appreciated.
eric added the following ...
Fanny: Your English is brilliant, far better than my French trust me. Your thoughts capture well the gap between our two regions of the world, and I hear that France is in fact ahead of many European countries in their thought and investment in this type of technology.
Thank you for helping to validate my thoughts on the subject. If the EuWAA gains momentum and becomes real I will gladly come to France and do what I am able to help push investment, understanding, and education along.
Sincerely.
Jacques Warren added the following ...
Well, as long as it does not end in a schism. We’re too young a field to have seperate “churches”. When volunteering at the WAA, I also brought up the situation of people from emerging economies, namely India, for whom membership was way too expensive, but I couldn’t get the association to reconsider its policy. I would say that’s another need that should be addressed by regional/local initiatives.
eric added the following ...
Jacques: Agreed, at least in part. The reason I said “sister organization” is to paint a picture of cooperating groups in different geographic regions, not competing companies. It doesn’t make sense to create a schism — but it also does not make sense to not provide the greatest value possible to all members of an organization, regardless of their region, level of use, stage of investment, etc.
I’m sorry to hear that the WAA wouldn’t hear what sounds like a perfectly good idea (different pricing in different regions.) That was a common complaint I heard also in Europe (which trust me, given the value of the dollar I was somewhat incredulous of but value is a function of perceived value, not actual price.)
Establishing a EuWAA and NaWAA would do exactly what you proposed — give each region control over pricing that best benefits their membership. Here in the U.S. we can probably stomach the recent 20% increase foisted on us — in other economies it would not be so easy to justify.
I look forward to continuing the conversation with you in San Francisco. Thanks for your comment!
Web Analytics Reading Roundup/Twitting Too! added the following ...
[…] Europe and the Web Analytics Association Being from jolly from England myself, it was great to see a post from Eric Peterson focusing on web analytics in Europe. And he is expecting things are about to take off, even though there is a general lag behind the U.S. […]
René Dechamps Otamendi added the following ...
Dear Eric,
Thanks for your post. I’m happy to read the positive comments that have been published so far. As we had the opportunity to discuss, I really believe that this makes sense. Getting back to Jacques’ comment, the idea wouldn’t be to make a schism but as Eric points out a ’sister organization’. This reminds me a concept that is very much used within the European Union: The subsidiarity concept. Here’s the Wikipedia definition:
Subsidiarity is the principle which states that matters ought to be handled by the smallest (or, the lowest) competent authority. The Oxford English Dictionary defines subsidiarity as the idea that a central authority should have a subsidiary function, performing only those tasks which cannot be performed effectively at a more immediate or local level. The concept is applicable in the fields of government, political science, cybernetics and management. Subsidiarity is, ideally or in principle, one of the features of federalism.
The word subsidiarity is derived from the Latin word subsidiarius and has its origins in Catholic social teaching. The concept or principle is found in several constitutions around the world (see for example the Tenth Amendment to the United States Constitution).
It is presently best known as a fundamental principle of European Union law. According to this principle, the EU may only act (i.e. make laws) where member states agree that action of individual countries is insufficient. The principle was established in the 1992 Treaty of Maastricht, and is contained within the proposed new Treaty establishing a constitution for Europe. However, at the local level it was already a key element of the European Charter of Local Self-Government, an instrument of the Council of Europe promulgated in 1985 (see Article 4, Paragraph 3 of the Charter)
As our industry matures, the needs will get more complex and diverse and thus more local involvement will be required. From my perspective, if we create this sister organization, it wouldn’t take all the competencies that the current WAA has. For example I don’t think that it would make much sense to have a separate Standards committee as we live in a global world and standards should be applicable to the Industry as a whole. Other activities as Events or marketing would make more sense to have a more regional (and national) approach.
So to end, yes for the EUWAA but only if we manage to do it in a coordinated manner with the existing WAA, as Jacques points out, we are still too young to start creating churches ;-)
The ball is now at the WAA, let’s see what comes out from the Board meeting next month in SF.
Cheers from Brussels,
René
OX2 Founder
Jmarc Vandenabeele added the following ...
Hi Eric,
I totaly agree with your idea.
I am based in Switzerland (French speaking area) and am member of the WAA for the second year. I have attended many of the webcasts organized by the WAA during the last year, and to be really honest I thought about not renew my registration because of the “US-centric” aspect of many of the webcasts (I especailly think about the webcasts titled “Web Analytics Money, Job, Education”). Don’t take me wrong, the quality of the webcasts and all the resources available when you are member of the WAA are extremely valuable and this is why, finally I renewed my membership but, the fact is that you are right, here in Europe, we are different and few years behind the US. And believe me, the language and cultural issues described by Julien are even more sensitive here in Switzerland where there is no less than 3 different languages plus English because of lots of international organisations.
So yes, I fully agree for a European “branch” of the WAA, not sure of a sister organisation or chapter but I share Jacques’ opinion, be carefull to not end in a schism and having 2 organisations walking not together but next to each other according the old schema “old-Europe against young America”.
We are different, but we need you and you need us ;-)
Julien Coquet added the following ...
Eric,
at the time of this comment, i’m sure René and Jean-Marc will have posted ;)
Being European at heart, i am also an outspoken federalist.
My personal vision of a potential structure (which does not reflect OX2’s views in any way) is as follows (top to bottom):
- a WWAA (World WAA) entity is created to oversee continental entities and facilitate the flow of information around the world, both to spread the gospel of Web Analytics but also to gather feedback from regional/tactical chapters. Its administrative board should (ideally) comprise members from all continents and we have seen such a trend recently with the latest WAA board elections, with more of us Euros going forward with their candidacies.
- continental entities (much like the EUWAA) are created to address regional concerns. As a consequence, the WAA as we know it could become the NAWAA because let’s face it, the current WAA is polarized on North America.
To quote Sir John Cleese: in Europe, when we organize World Series, we actually invite other countries. You get my drift, I’ll get off my soap box now :-)
So, for other continents, we could have other entities such as APWAA for the APAC region, LAWAA for Latin America, AFWAA for Africa and possibly the Middle East.
Actually, I believe India could almost be in a continental entity of its own but we can discuss that offline.
- national chapters (as currently managed by WAA Country Managers) carry on with more national/local matters and try to get information and best practices up and down the chain of ‘command’. Country managers like myself need to make themselves known as ‘local gurus’ and help further coordinate information sharing and gathering.
As I was suggesting earlier, the WWAA could serve both as a transmitter and a receptor. The transmitting part could aim at propagating best practices and concepts, pitching new ideas and paradigms and - most important of all - sharing the findings of regional/tactical entities.
Well, that was more than I originally wanted to post (Aurélie is rubbing off on me :-)) but it reflects my views on what the WAA as we know it could become in a not-so-distant future.
I will try and make it to eMetrics London this year so that we Euros can discuss it more in person ;-)
Cheers,
Julien
wanalytics // Web Analytics and emetrics // Oliver Schiffers » Blog Archive » Web Analytics Association in Europa added the following ...
[…] Eric Peterson schreibt in einem sehr interessanten Beitrag über die Notwendigkeit einer europäisch… […]
Oliver Schiffers added the following ...
Hi Eric,
I am so glad you brought up this discussion and I cannot agree more with most of the points you make. I second the idea, as it seems to be the best way to speed up in operations of the WAA in Europe as well as in adoption and membership and the industry as whole.
My full response is in german as I want to learn more about opinions from germany and especially if there are people over here who did not join or engage in WAA, because they thought it would be a US or too international association: http://www.wanalytics.de/2008/04/web-analytics-association-in-europa/
Thanks Again,
Oliver
Carl-Johan Hunefalk added the following ...
Hi Eric,
I am a frequent reader of your posts, although I haven’t participated before. I have some years in web analytics and have used a few systems, so I have considered joining the WAA. The reason I haven’t is that the WAA’s website and most discussions I’ve seen have a US focus.
I can also say I agree on the perceived pricing level being too high. Not because it’s expensive, perhaps, but it’s unclear to me what I’ll get out of a WAA membership - my focus is on Europe and I want the discussions focused on issues relevant to me and my clients.
Europe is really diversified when it comes to both languages, cultures and pricing. WA companies originating from here in Denmark, where I’m located (TraceWorks, IndexTools -> bought by Yahoo!, Instadia -> bought by Omniture), have a pricing level to survive in the local market, with plenty of features that are demanded here. When expanding across Europe (or globally), these prices are cheap in some markets and expensive in others, and practitioners are used to different features.
I guess my point is that you can’t treat EU as a market in itself - you have to take each country’s traits into account. Europeans are used to that, as opposed to many (not all!) Americans, so I think the EuWAA would be a great initiative. I would strongly consider joining, whereas I’m still not sure of the value I get from joining the WAA right now.
Thanks for a very informative blog.
Cheers,
Carl-Johan
S.Hamel added the following ...
I don’t understand how creating a distinct WAA group would really be better. The WAA is a volunteer organization and nothing prevent people in Europe, the same companies who would likely get involved in a EuWAA organization, to volunteer right away and organize events and foster the interests of the EU industry and members. Everyone knows Quebec is “a distinct society” in North America, mixed between English Canada, the US and European roots. Should I call for a QcWAA too?
I would rather ask the WAA to name official regional coordinators (elected, just as the board members) who would be empowered with some of the funding (prorata of memberships) to be more active in their respective regions. I can easily see the need for local coordinators in the UK, France, Nordics, India, Canada, Quebec, etc.
As a democratic organization, the WAA as an elected board and European (or anywhere else) members are invited to participate actively and influence the future of the organization. There’s even an international committee who should look into improving the international representativity and usefulness of the organization.
Disclaimer: I’m just an involved volunteer member of the WAA. I have absolutely no financial interest in stating my mind.
eric added the following ...
Rene: I was very excited to see your comment as I believe that people like you, Steve, Lars, Neil, and many others are critical to making a decision like this. If you (and all the other folks from Europe who seem excited about this idea) were to band together to create this subsidiary or sister organization I have no doubt you would be very successful!
In terms of “the ball being with the WAA” … do you know how to make sure that this conversation happens in San Francisco? Nobody from the Board has written me about this idea for some reason so I’m not sure the same conversation is happening in the U.S. that is happening in Europe.
Thank you for your enthusiasm and thoughts my friend.
eric added the following ...
Jmarc: Absolutely! Nothing would be worse than Europe creating a totally new, totally separate organization that had few ties to the NAWAA … nothing except perhaps persisting the existing situation where Europeans (and folks in AsiaPac, Australia, and South America I am hearing) are simply not getting value for their investment.
The good news is that a whole lot of bright people seem to be in favor of this idea. In my experience, bright well-meaning people make great things happen — just look at what Jim, Bryan, Rand, Greg, and Seth were able to do with the existing WAA!
Thanks for your comment!
eric added the following ...
Julien: Funny, June and I were having more or less the same conversation yesterday. She asked me about a model for what I’m proposing and I came up with the one I was most familiar with from college: The Mycological Society.
Around the world the International Mycological Association has regional and local branches that are each their own distinct (but related) organization. While the study of mushrooms is probably not the best example (sorry!) I suspect there are several good models out there that would match your WWAA (= WAA) and NAWAA/EUWAA/APWAA/SAWAA model.
Good thinking and I look forward to hearing what you discover/discuss at Emetrics London (and perhaps the Omniture events that are happening in Europe right now as well.)
eric added the following ...
Oliver: Thanks for your enthusiasm and for cross-posting the idea in German. Please let us know what you discover in your research.
Carl-Johan: You make an excellent point about there not being “one Europe” and that different countries are at different stages (similar comment as Julien). And again, this is exactly what a EUWAA would be working to address — giving European’s the ability to adjust pricing, events, presentations, etc. as necessary based on individual local markets.
Here in the states we don’t really have local markets. Salaries are different across the country, as is general availability of experienced practitioners, but otherwise we don’t see pronounced differences in use and understanding of analytics by region. Perhaps that is part of the reason we’ve seen this problem arise?
Thanks to you both for your thoughts.
eric added the following ...
Stephane: Thanks for your comment but I think you might be missing something. The situation you’ve proposes is more or less what exists today — international committee, regional (country) managers, volunteers, etc. — but if you read all of the comments from Europeans above, the status quo does not appear to be working.
In terms of having a Canadian WAA … I guess that’s up to you. My sense is that Canada has been pretty well represented owing to your representation on the board. But the question you should ask yourself is “are you getting good value for your money?”
René Dechamps Otamendi added the following ...
Eric: I now that the discussion is going to happen in San Francisco’s board meeting. I can’t tell the outcomes, but based on the discussion I see here in the comments, I don’t see many ‘negative’ points that could arise.
On the other hand we have to move carefully as this won’t happen overnight and it will require dedication from many of us. Don’t take me wrong, I’ll be the first one to volunteer and help out to make this idea a reality (again in coordination and supported by the current WAA), I just don’t want to raise the expectations as I don’t see this happening before next year if we want to do it right.
Thanks for launching the conversation and let’s see now what comes out of the WAA board ;-)
Europeans : I’m very happy to read that many of you support this idea. In order to start structuring things, could I ask you to send me an email if you’re interested in supporting this initiative and if we could count on you should the board decide to give it a try? Please send me an email, don’t hesitate to send along your thoughts and possible involvment (rdo AT ox2 DOT be). I’ll centralise the list and bring it with me to San Francisco so I can give the info to the board of the WAA. Thanks!
Cheers,
René
eric added the following ...
Rene: I hope you’re right! It’s quite funny that ** nobody ** from the Association Board has commented on this post — I suspect that tells me/us something but I’m not exactly sure what it is.
As I said, I am happy to do whatever I (and my company) can do to help!
One caution: I would not rely entirely on the WAA Board to make the EUWAA happen. I guess my point was that it needs to be driven by Europeans looking for the support of the Board. If you leave this up to a Board vote I suspect that, much like in American politics, the status quo will carry the day. I could be wrong …
Thanks for stepping up Rene! Make sure to include all the great folks who have commented on this post (and everyone who didn’t as well!)
Vicky added the following ...
Eric,
Speaking personally and not in a WAA capacity, I think its entirely appropriate that no one from the Board has commented. They represent WAA member interests, not just their own and I don’t see how jumping in with their own two pennies worth ahead of a complete information gathering process helps.
As many of the people commenting in this thread are already aware, the international committee and the WAA is looking at this and are gathering the facts and considering the implications, costs and benefits. Surely that’s an appropriate process for any organisation considering such a major decision to take?
Personally, I am confident that there is enough senior European representation in the WAA and enough wisdom present alround that the right decision will be made, regardless of US status quo. But then I’m biased.
eric added the following ...
Vicky: An excellent point. I think the comment I was looking for was more a “this is worth considering, we have added it to the agenda for San Francisco” not so much an opinion on the value of the idea. You say that “many people commenting in this thread re already aware …” but I think that many people reading this thread are actually ** not aware ** that the WAA has taken action.
That said, my email in-box this AM suggests that this issue will be covered in some detail at the meetings in San Francisco and so I, like many readers, look forward to hearing about the outcome.
Thanks for writing Vicky and I sincerely hope that you have been elected in the recent round and will be able to bring your insights and opinions to what is obviously a very important debate.
Nick Potter added the following ...
Eric, in response to your question on why I *don’t* favour the idea of separate organisations, I guess it comes down to your definition of “sister organisations”.
I think in order to push web analytics forward we need a single central body to help define standards, roles, and drive other areas of the field. So long as these sister organisations were ultimatly led by a central body I guess I wouldn’t have an issue. What I wouldn’t want to see is the NaWAA, EuWAA and ApWAA all going in wildly separate directions which would only fragment and confuse the industry.
This is why I was suggesting still keeping the WAA as the controlling body, but putting more emphasis into the regional management/chapters funded from members and organisations within those regions. This way, the regional needs can still be met but there is still an overriding standards body (if you will) driving the industry as a whole.
Vicky added the following ...
Many thanks Eric :) and I can’t agree more on the importance of the debate and the researching of this. But a researcher would say that!
eric added the following ...
Nick: An excellent suggestion. At the end of the day my observation was only designed to push the conversation along and create awareness that Europe is being under-served by the status quo. Whatever the outcome this has been a very valuable (and productive!) conversation. Thanks very much for your comments!
Vicki: Indeed! See you in San Francisco!
Europe and the Web Analytics Association « Jim Sterne on eMetrics added the following ...
[…] Europe and the Web Analytics Association This is my response to a long thread over on Eric Peterson’s blog on Europe and the WAA. […]
Jim Sterne added the following ...
Hi Eric -
Yes, I have a few thoughts on this subject as you might well imagine… over on my blog.
eric added the following ...
Jim: Thanks for your email and for the comment in your blog, much appreciated. Your points are all ** absolutely valid ** but it makes me wonder again whether the EUWAA should be a piece of the current WAA (with the Board, the decision process, and the formality that you do a good job of describing) or whether Europeans are simply better off building their own group with the goal of working closely with the NAWAA on relative projects like Standards.
Obviously it’s not for me to decide, but I’m not 100% sure it is for the current WAA Board to decide either.
One thing you may want to consider is simply giving the European’s who have stepped up, um, your blessings (both you personally and you with your WAA pin on!) to move ahead and look at forming a new organization. That would save the NAWAA the (probably massive) distraction of a project like this and allow the NAWAA to focus on providing value back to the whole membership while Europe explores options.
A difficult issue to be sure, and clearly I don’t have as many answers as I have questions.
Either way I appreciate your willingness to comment (as a private citizen) on the idea of a European WAA. I know that ** all ** of the Europeans I talk to have a ** profound ** (and deserved) respect for you, your work, and your position in our industry. Your support of their efforts will be critical.
See you soon.
Steve Jackson added the following ...
I just posted my response to Jim on his site but figured it’s worth repeating here as it explains my initial thinking regards a vote:
–
Jim,
Great post. I don’t think anyone is expecting any changes to take place quickly. The points you raise are all very valid and I don’t want to interrupt the current situation which is progressing well until everything has been addressed, discussed and the best way forward decided. I think Rene mentioned a year before this might be a realistic proposition and I don’t disagree with him.
It’s one of the initial reasons I called for a vote on this from European members. They after all would be the first people effected. If anything comes from the board meeting might I suggest the first thing be to debate a poll?
If a vote was posed along the lines of:
Would you be in favor of an independently run European branch of the WAA run by a European board of directors working toward upholding global standards whilst catering for the specific needs of its european membership?
I was impressed by the boards speed in moving on this already, but all the questions raised in the emails I’ve seen so far (like how it would be funded) are perhaps premature until we have more than simply the blog posts and emails as a gauge of European opinion.
I’ve already gone on record saying I’m for a EUWAA but I am merely one person in a membership which numbers in the hundreds in Europe.
Best regards
Steve
Jim Sterne added the following ...
Hey Eric -
Let me repeat one important fact - we are member driven. The blogosphere community is crucial to the WAA’s success and terrific for prodding it - and thanks! But we must put the question to our members. And first, we have to have a cogent question to ask.
Steve Jackson asks:
Would you be in favor of an independently run European branch
of the WAA run by a European board of directors working toward
upholding global standards whilst catering for the specific needs of
its european membership?
Compared to what? What are the options? What are the implications?
I don’t think *any*body is saying this is a bad idea. But what’s the best way forward?
Are we - as web analysts - the people with the best experience in this area or should we reach out for some professional association management consulting? Many MANY more questions than answers today.
Cross posted to Jim Sterne on eMetrics
Do we need regional Web Analytics Association? US, EU and APAC | Web Analytics India Blog added the following ...
[…] recent conversation over Eric Peterson’s blog to have a separate EUWAA raised lot’s of questions and some really intresting thoughts on how […]
La WAA llega a España | Javier Godoy added the following ...
[…] a eso añadimos la idea de Eric Peterson de crear una asociación europea, creo que podemos estar hablando del inicio de la madurez de la industria fuera de Estados Unidos. […]
The WAA goes European? « ActiveMetrics added the following ...
[…] 30 04 2008 This is our response to a very interesting post on Eric Peterson’s blog, Europe and the Web Analytics Association, in which Eric puts forward the idea to setup a European subsidiary of the WAA. Based on the […]
Siegert Dierickx added the following ...
Hi Eric and others,
I already started this comment a few days ago, but I see many well-thought comments being added in the mean time, so I’ve modified my original version slightly and added my personal ideas on some of the comments you can read above.
This comment can also be read on our blog http://www.activemetrics.be
Of course I and our web analytics team at These Days (WPP/Wunderman) can only encourage more coverage and focus on the wonderful world of web analytics for the European market.
Nobody can deny that there is a difference between the US market and Europe, but that applies of course for more than only web analytics. We do live in the United States of Europe, with it’s wonderful local tendencies & flavours!
Stating that the US web analytics market is much more evolved then in Europe (between 2 and 4 years ahead as Eric states), I can not confirm or deny, but I hope to get better insights next week in San Francisco and we’ll definitely run a research exercise with our US WPP/Wunderman collegaues of ZAAZ and VML.
Anyway, if we take a look at the goals of the WAA, you can read on the top of homepage of the WAA:
The Web Analytics Association (WAA) unites and fosters the interests of industry practitioners, vendors, consultants and educators who use, sell, install, implement, consult, teach or train in the field of web analytics.
In regards to the goals of the WAA:
* I do agree that a more continental and regional focus should be applied for events, although the current overlapping events should continue.
* And I also agree that pricing (licenses, events, consultancy, etc) and privacy concerns need a different focus for both continents.
However, besides these, I don’t see any reasons why other goals, such as education and definition of standards, should be split in a NA and a EU group/subsidiarity/sister organization.
Rather than setting up a subsidiarity I would suggest
* setting up a NA and a European committee (maybe a split of the current international committee is an option), which exist out of regional expert volunteers, and which can be in the driver’s seat for continental events.
* Regional/country events can easily stay within the responsibility of the WAA country managers, as it is now, although I didn’t see much happen on country level in the Benelux so far.
So maybe these should rather be managed by the NA or European committee on their continent, I think my ideas are more or less in the line of the vision of Nick Potter and my dear friend Julien.
Anyway, I volunteer*** to brainstorm further on the subject in San Francisco and afterwards. But before any plan or suggestion is made to the WAA board, we definitely need much more thinking!
And yes, why not reach out for some professional association management consulting, as Jim Sterne suggests!
*** In the line of Stephane Hamels’ great disclaimer: ‘I will just be an involved volunteer member of the WAA. I have absolutely no financial interest in stating my mind.’
CU in SF,
Siegert
Marianina Chaplin Manning added the following ...
Eric, a great polemic and debate has started thanks to your impetus.
I think it’s good idea to have a European WAA, not in order to create a power struggle or conflicts of interest, but to create member benefits better suited for European members. Eg I am on the social media committee and every single meeting happens at 1pm EST (which happens to be 6pm in London or 7pm on the continent). Ditto with many member seminars etc.
In terms of involvement,shaping a European WAA with others likeminded in Europe is something I would be very interested in.
BTW, I’ll be at emetrics in London but not San Fran so see you soon.
Marianina
eric added the following ...
Siegert: Thanks for your comment. I suspect that this will be quite the interesting topic on Sunday in San Francisco given then number of outspoken Europeans coming to the WAA event.
Marianina: I’m almost positive that nobody has suggested that the EUWAA be established to create a power struggle or conflict of interest. The whole idea was to do exactly what you state: create member benefits better suited to European members.
If the EUWAA were to happen, I suspect it would also create a nice side benefit — it would allow the great U.S. based volunteers to focus on North American benefits AND allow all of us worldwide to participate in worldwide issues (standards to some extent, education to some extent, etc.) as we like.
A question I would pose to you (and I should have asked Vicky … maybe she is still reading this): If you are elected to the current WAA Board, and if the EUWAA happens, would you be interested in relinquishing your “WAA” board position and taking a EUWAA board position?
I ask because inevitably the EUWAA will need bright, motivated, charismatic people like you to gain momentum … it would be sad to lose you here in the US but great to know you’re putting the pieces together over in Europe.
(I say this not knowing if you were elected or not …)
Anyway, sorry you won’t be at the Rave next Tuesday and the gala on Sunday. Hope to see you soon and thanks for your comment!
Neil Mason added the following ...
Hi Eric and all,
As I pack my bags for Emetrics and the WAA Board Meeting in SF next week, I have added some personal thoughts on the issue here: http://tinyurl.com/5wvorp
Look forward to seeing you all soon!
Neil
Sven Gerber added the following ...
Dear Eric,
being the “WAA coordinator” for Germany for a while, I personally back up all activities which support the founding idea of the WAA as an international member driven organisation, which is “to unite and foster the interests of industry practitioners, vendors, consultants and educators who use, sell, install, implement, consult, teach or train in the field of web analytics”.
As each of us can think of, there are thousands (or even more) ideas and thoughts on how this could be archieved. One of those is the idea of changing the existing organizational structure.
However, based on limited available ressources (people, time, budget etc.), not all of those those ideas can be realised at the same time and therefore need to be prioritized. Because even the discussion of those ideas takes time and ressources (which could be used on other ideas or projects), every member and the organisation as a whole must decide, how much time he/she is able and wants to spend/commit on which area/discussions/projects.
This is basically the reason why I did/do not engange within your discussion until today - even though it affects the (european) environment.
In my (local and personal) view, the WAA organisational structure allows every member to build/create local grassroot WA projects under the umbrella of - and connected with - the global WAA. Of course there’s room for improvement (as always and everywhere), but instead of prioritizing on complex organisational projects and more charges/officeholders, I would prefer to see the organisation and it’s members to fokus on enganging and spending time in local/international Web Analytics related projects (which is the hen, not the egg - in the hen/egg likeness).
That said, my priorisation as a country coordinator in Germany is on local grassroot projects, to engange existing and new members to build/create Web Analytics related projects related to the founding idea of the WAA. (we have/had initiatives like the German WAA Blog, the cooperation with the XING/WAA Group (250 members), webinars, media-sponsorship/speaches on events like Internet World Germany etc) - but can think of a thousand more …local volunteers hands up!
Best,
Sven
e-dynamics.de / Germany
eric added the following ...
Neil and Sven: Thanks for your thoughts. While I agree that the current instantiation of the WAA ** should ** allow every member to create their own projects, I wonder based on conversations I have had (and comments to this very post) whether that is actually translated into reality.
My fear is that, if left up to the current machinery, there is a small chance that the decision will be made based on what is best for the association, not necessarily the membership, and certainly not necessarily the European membership. This has been a somewhat recurring theme and I think it holds the WAA back … it also is creating conflicts of interest that many of us have noticed.
I guess what I would like to see is a “vote of interest” offered to European WAA members and non-members (I have a pretty substantial list of names if needed) to see whether a EUWAA is a good idea.
Anyway, it sounds like there will be a spirited discussion on Sunday so that will be nice. Congrats on your re-election Neil and see you real soon!
Sandrine added the following ...
From my side I think the EuWAA is a really good idea for all the reasons that Eric and Julien have explained. Then let’s see what will happen:-)
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[…] already spoke about the subsidiarity principle in a comment on Eric’s blog; today I wanted to speak about a Spanish political concept: the Autonomous Communities (Comunidades […]
Julien Coquet added the following ...
Hi Eric,
You’re right in saying that Europe is in a market of its own if only for one of two things: its languages and cultures.
As I was explaining in one of our posts on Web Analytics in Europe, one quickly realizes that things are not run the same way on the Old Continent as they are in North America, or Asia or any other continent for that matter.
Cheers,
Julien